12 replies to this topic

[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan    


Dear Shri Vinod Kumar,
  
              
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
            
            
‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  

Sub: Non-violence - an example
Ref: Monday, April 13, 2009, 10:49 PM
  
  
Thank you for perusing the submission and coming up with your further clarification.


Extract from the previous reply to his question appended:

Quote:Shri Vinod raises a serious doubt that should one be a silent witness to an act of valence caused in front?
  
  
Prevention or averting a violent act in the instant case is different from reaction or ‘tit for tat’.
  
  
So politely preventing an act of violence is something different to react and hit back. And one is to suffer the cause of one’s past bound karma, how that can be stopped. (unquote)

  

In the instant case the mischief doer has already suffered for his very thinking of causing mischief to other – lady - and he shall have to pay for it. In respect of the other one who is hurt, she is punished for her past bound karma.


Sure the expected answer was very much there but perhaps the expected reply when not found there, the second dose of questions sprouted.

  
  
Now let us reanalyze the valued question:

My doubt was not wether I should try to prevent molestation or not. About that I have no doubt. I will do all I could to prevent a cruelty...


Reply:
It is very much replied and your intervention should not be ‘tit for tat’ but peaceful persuasion and mere an attempt to stop the heinous crime to be committed.  Even an assault by the criminal has to be eschewed and not to hit back. Violence for violence is not the correct means.


Quote:
My doubt was about inaction....If a person remain neutral..... in the scene of  cruelty.....
Does he/she commits violance or not ??  This is my doubt...
Does the INACTION  in itself is  VIOLANCE  or not ??


Reply:
The supposed criminal action is an account of what cause viz., cheating, ingratitude etc., is unknown to you. Secondly, it is taken for granted that it is an act of crime according to you. You are as a normal human being, has moral responsibility to intervene by peaceful means and stop it, if it is possible. But that – inaction in the spot - does not tantamount to violence by any stretch of imagination.


That apart, it is your thinking to stop on account of pity – daya – for the woman, right. And adhyathmically you are binding karma – may be punnya karma which otherwise would not have been bound. Being a silent spectator is not going to affect you any way.


Violence is virulent action here physical action and inaction how it could be said as violence. On the other hand if your thoughts are violent and no action then you had committed psychic violence


Certainly inaction both physical and psychic in the spot cannot be called as ‘violence’ as termed by you.


Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  

Welcome for any further clarification.
  

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan


--- On Mon, 4/13/09, vinod kumar <vinodd_bh@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: vinod kumar <vinodd_bh@yahoo.com>
Subject: [JainList] NON-VIOLENCE
To: "jainlist" <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 10:49 PM

JAI JINENDRA..

DEAR ALL,

I have asked a doubt about NON-VIOLANCE. .

My doubt was not wether I should try to prevent molestation or not. About that I have no doubt. I will do all I could to prevent a cruelty...

My doubt was about inaction.... ........

If a person remain neutral..... ......... .in the scene of  cruelty..... .........

Does he/she commits violance or not ??  This is my doubt...
Does the INACTION  in itself is  VIOLANCE  or not ??

With  Love

Vinod

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



__._,_.___

[mahendra]

continuations of above discussions reproduced for debates

Samyak Darshan    


Dear Dr. Shri Kanaka Ajithadoss Jain,
  
              
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
            
            
‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  

Sub: Fatalism and Passionless Jina Dharma
Ref: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 12:07 AM
  
  
Thank you for perusing the submission and coming up with your further clarification.


Your valued questions are analyzed:

Quote:
I have a small doubt to be clarified.
A tinge of ' fatalism , lurks in  the  presentation.  As   I understand from the erudite presentation  that it is the fate -or karma or Vinai  whatever name   one may give that is the ultimate controller of the action of the mighty soul. (nnquote)


Analysis:
Passionless Jina Dharma: Self – Soul – by virtue of its intrinsic and infinite qualities can attain its nature – Nirvaan against the seemingly inevitable necessity of meeting the determined etc.


Fatalism: fate, fatality, the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable necessity, or determined in advance in such a way that human beings cannot change them.


As you sow; so you reap. Stop sowing the seeds of rebirth and you will not to reap the birth and death –  attain Nirvaan.


Seed of mithyaathva – wrong faith – if stopped from sowing, its consequent results of birth and death will automatically stop.


When any thing physical is happening either in one’s body or its surroundings one has to be only witness and if not his thought based consequent action which may or may not take place, is not relevant but the thought is the most important to be taken care of.


You have all the capabilities to control or restrain your thoughts and that will take care of you – Self – Soul; rest are all things that pertain to some other substance for which that substance is the substantial cause.


Besides, Godhood carries wrong definition and so the fatalism comes to play a dominant roll. Passionless Jina Dharma believes in the capabilities of Self – Soul – alone for its liberation from the cycle of birth and death as against the belief of omnipotent God.


Quote:
Where  has gone the purusharth of the soul or what is the role of purusharth? (unquote)


Analysis:
Ignorant Self – Soul – wishes or thinks to do or meddle with other substances and souls and consequently meets unfailingly failures ending in disappointment and frustration manifesting likes and dislikes, the root for the cycle of birth and death and its attendant pain and suffering.


Soul is one to end all sufferings and pains; soul is the one to continue all sufferings and pains. There is no place for any outside agency to play a roll in the function of soul.


This if one is able to understand clearly and firmly this independence and self subsistence of Soul, how this can look like fatalism. You are the architect of your fortune of Nirvaan and misfortune of Samsaar. This is Soul’s effort – purushaarth – is  knowing and seeing only and not doing.


Quote:
till nirjara is completed there is no role for the soul to act? (Unquote)


Analysis:
Nirjara – shedding takes place in both the place viz., 01) in Soul by desisting from entertaining the unnatural thoughts – bhaava nirjara and consequently stops fresh influx of dhravya ashrava. So, 02) the shedding of the past bound dhravya nirjara is real one and is called avipaak nirjara – not causing fresh bhaava ashrava. This is a cycle. Therefore, one will fail not to recognize this moot point and understand the fully involved roll of Soul during the period of practice renunciation.


Quote:
he has to be a silent spectator always?


Reply:
Yes, you and all the souls are very much that only even today. But neither have you known it nor you believe it. It sparks in the start of 4th gunasthan and matures in 7th gunasthan to manifest Keval Gynaan in 13th & 14th Gunasthan and for ever in Siddtha. Between the 1st and 3rd gunasthan bhavya soul do not attempt for it. Abhavyaa souls are non-believers of this capability of their soul and shall remain so for ever.


We the mundane wrong believers are not behaving so and hence the samsaar continues and to stop and end the samsaar it is the one and only way as expounded by infinite Vitraag Jinendra Bhaghavaan.


What Arihant and Siddha are doing excepting enjoying ever lasting bliss and vyavahaariclly called as Knower and seer of the Universe with all its manifestation for all the times.

  
Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  

Welcome for any further clarification.
  

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Kanaka Ajithadoss <ajithadoss@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kanaka Ajithadoss <ajithadoss@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [JainList] NON-VIOLENCE
To: "Sreepalan VC" <sreepal5058@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 12:07 AM

Sri jinaya nama;
Thank you Sir for providing information On Sri  Vinod Kumar's ' ahimsa- violence' topic.

Sir, from your very informative clarification
i have a small doubt to be clarified.
A tinge of ' fatalism , lurks in  the  presentation.  As   I understand from the erudite presentation  that it is the fate -or karma or Vinai  whatever name   one may give that is the ultimate controller of the action of the mighty soul.

Where  has gone the purusharth of the soul or
what is the role of purusharth?
till nirjara is completed there is no role for the soul to act?
he has to be a silent spectator always?
Samyak darsan


On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058@yahoo.com> wrote:

Samyak Darshan    


Dear Shri Vinod Kumar,

‘Nonviolence’ – Ahimsa – is being discussed in the various discussion tables for over 5/6 years as known and answers were also provide therein. Yet it is something that is haunting the knowing entity – Soul – for various reasons.


Shri Vinod Kumar has followed the discussion currently on and has questioned as under:
  
Quote:
My doubt is.. to witness some one being hurt and not preventing it  is Violance or not ?
For example if  someone  does some mischief with a female passenger in a bus and if I happened to be a witness and not intervening to protect the female, is it not Violance ??(unquote)


Shri Manish Yashodhar Modi has made out a case that as an householder to protect or secure one’s wealth, etc., acts causing violence is permissible. That is in other words one is well within the parameters of Passionless Jina Dharma, if that one does violent act to cause a halt for another violent act being performed in front. In the case of fully renounced one no violent action is called for under sny circumstance.


Violence is presented in Passionless Jina Dharma as 01) swa-himsa  - injury to Self and 02) para-himsa – injury to others.   Self injury is caused by Self – Soul – by its unnatural feelings – vibhaava parinathi – and injury to others – other souls - caused by Soul’s past bound karmas, here that soul itself is the substantial cause (upaadhana kaarna).  And the one cause injury is only instrumental cause (nimitta kaarana). Why blame the arrow leaving the shooter?


‘Action and reaction’ being the universal law of nature, one has to learn to respect this or else to face its consequence.


Shri Vinod raises a serious doubt that should one be a silent witness to an act of valence caused in front?


Prevention or averting a violent act in the instant case is different from reaction or ‘tit for tat’.


So politely preventing an act of violence is something different to react and hit back. And one is to suffer the cause of one’s past bound karma, how that can be stopped.


In the instant case the mischief doer has already suffered for his very thinking of causing mischief to other – lady - and he shall have to pay for it. In respect of the other one who is hurt, she is punished for her past bound karma.


Example:
Sow Sita in her advance stage of pregnancy was driven to forest by Shri Ram and when the servant leaves her in the forest, he cries and says that he had to perform such dreadful act and seeks her pardon. In reply Sow Sita says that you are only a servant of your master and you are discharging your master’s order. She goes on saying that in her case she had in her previous birth she had separated a female dove from her spouse and she is paying for it.


So, no action takes place without sufficient cause for it.


In the light of the above one has to ponder over and under any circumstance the very thinking of violence is injurious to one. Well, preventing or averting by peaceful means is advisable but not reacting the same way as the other one dose.
Failures may be there but consequences are sure and definite. Hence, avoidance of violence at any cost is sane and safe for one.


Choice is one’s and its consequences are alos one’s.

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan

--
Prof. Dr. Kanaka ..AJITHADOSS

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan    

Dear Shri Tejas Kadia,
  
              
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
            

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  

Sub: incidence of karma  dust into the Soul
Ref: Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:36 PM


Quite necessarily the answer sought for must help understand the ‘anaadhi’ theory of passionless Jina Dharma.

Attempted to reply:

Yours question:
Quote:
In Jainism there is no beginning nor end, nor an omnipotent
God. So how did the souls get mixed with matter in the first place?

Reply:
Rightly did your good selves said about the beginning less ness of the universe and so the components of the universe also are beginning less – anaadhi.


Telling example given in our sacred scriptures is the gold when it had gone with earth? And the reply is it is anaadhi. Similarly all souls were with karmic body from the beginning less time. And due to ignorance of the Self – Soul –, it identifies with the objects that fall in its knowledge screen, the soul’s vibration is clumsy and causes the renewal of the karmic body.  By the effort of the soul, it could liberate from the clutches of body.


What it is?


By Right understanding – Samyak gynaan - of what is soul and karma clearly and believing – samyak darshana - it so will drive the soul to behave – samyak charitra - as soul and that is penance – samyak thapasya. The four kinds of araadhana or immersion into one’s own self and in other words to manifest one’s own qualities from delusion and resultant likes and dislikes would gradually let soul to manifest Keval Gynaan, Keval Darshan, Ananta virya and Ananta sukha.  Since the functioning atmosphere in soul is bereft of convulsive vibration due to absence of delusion and resultant likes and dislikes, the unfavorable condition for karmic dust lets them to shed. Thus purity of soul surges and culminates in irreversible Keval Gynaan and finally Siddhathva.


Godhood:
Every soul has potentially possesses Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence. But it is not as understood and spoken of by other faiths.

Passionless Jina Dhara:
Omniscience:
Infinite knowledge in Soul is capable of knowing and seeing for ever all the modifications for all the three times of the components of this universe in one samaya. This happens because the substances are capable of exhibiting – prameyathva gunn – themselves ceaselessly and knowing and seeing also function ceaselessly and therefore, the entire picture is seen in Kevali’s knowledge with ease and comfort.


Omnipresence:
Since all the substances with all their modifications are ceaselessly depicted in the knowledge of the Kevali, it is said that He is present every where figuratively.

And Omnipotence:
Since all his qualities are intact from the beginning less to endless time and nothing goes out or anything comes in to the soul, its potency remains always the same.  It does not look for assistance from outside for its existence and function. Therefore it is omnipotent – infinite strength.


Certainly it dose not meant to do any thing to show the muscle power or supernatural power as understood by other faiths


Thank you for perusing the submission and coming up with your further clarification.
  

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  

Welcome for any further clarification.
  

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan



--- On Fri, 3/27/09, Tejas Kadia <tejas.kadia@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tejas Kadia <tejas.kadia@gmail.com>
Subject: [JainList] DOUBT ABOUT KARMA AND ITS IMPLICATIONS
To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:36 PM

I think it is a great question and I'd love to hear someone on the list
answer this. In Jainism there is no beginning nor end, nor an omnipotent
God. So how did the souls get mixed with matter in the first place?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan    


Dear Shri Shrish Jain,
  
              
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
            

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  

Sub: Cause and Effect relation in between soul and body
Ref: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 7:06 AM


Sorry for the delayed response.


Indeed your valued statement is worth analyzing as our hero Soul is involved in it.


There are two relationships viz., kaaarna kaarya (cause and effect) and nimitta nymittiga (instrumental and substantial) which are important to understand the complexity of the Passionless Jina Dharma in respect of relationships. In respect of the later it may also be called as psycho-physical as it is essentially related to psychic function and physical function between the two.


Cause and effect relationship can take place only in one substance. Eg: mud and pot – mud is the substantial cause and pot is the substantial effect. Mud only has become pot.
Substantial and instrumental cause: mud is the substantial cause and potter, potter’s wheel, rod used for rotating the wheet, axis etc., are instrumental csuse. Mud only become pot and not the potter, wheel etc.


Quote:

Knowledge: As windows helps us know what is outside. Similarly senses and Mann helps the soul gain knowledge.(unquote)
Analysis:
Window is only an opening in the wall and the hole cannot make the soul inside the room to know what is outside. So, the window is only instrumental to enable the soul inside the room and that would be so only when the soul wishes – substantial cause - to know what is outside the room.


Quote:

Making voice: As a flute guy pumps out air, and the flute makes sound, similarly soul does the motion and sound comes from body. (unquote)
Analysis:
Pumping is physical act and air is also physical, right. Soul or the flute guy’s intention to blow air is the instrumental cause and the other two functions are substantial cause.

Quote:
    3. Motion in body by soul: As a driver moves his hands and legs, and accordingly the car moves. Similarly soul moves and accordingly body moves. (unquote)
Analysis:
Soul’s thinking is the instrumental cause for the movement of the body as detailed and the body is the substantial cause.

Quote:
  4. Motion in soul by body: As the car moves by quake outside, and the driver moves. Similarly soul moves by the movement of body by external causes.

  5. Body's response to soul's emotions: When soul does emotions, the body responds accordingly. When soul has anger, the eyes turn red. When soul is happy, the face smiles etc.

  6. Souls pleasure/happiness with bodily changes: With heat or cold, the body temperature goes up or down. And soul gets happy/sad with changes of temperature because of Moha. (unquote)

Analysis:
Body moves due to quake and so the soul inside also said to move. Body and quake are both physical and there is nimitta-nymittiaga sambanda between the two. Soul’s part is silent as it has neither wished to move or otherwise.

Soul when in different moods soul is substantial cause and body’s reaction is instrumental. For body’s movements, body is substantial cause and soul is instrumental cause.

Quote:
  7. Changes in body with age: As age increases, the body expands or contracts. (unquote)
Analysis:
Body is the substantial cause for the changes and ayu karma is the instrumental cause.


On relationship between Soul and body, there is very little chance of cause and effect as they are two different and independent substances.  


Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  

Welcome for any further clarification.
  

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan


--- On Sat, 3/14/09, Shrish Jain <shrishjain@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Shrish Jain <shrishjain@gmail.com>
Subject: [JainList] Cause and Effect relation in between soul and body
To: "jain list" <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 7:06 AM

Here are the cause and effect relations in between soul and body as per Text Moksha Marg prakshak Ji, Page 80-81, Chapter 4:

  1. Knowledge: As windows helps us know what is outside. Similarly senses and Mann helps the soul gain knowledge.
  2. Making voice: As a flute guy pumps out air, and the flute makes sound, similarly soul does the motion and sound comes from body.
  3. Motion in body by soul: As a driver moves his hands and legs, and accordingly the car moves. Similarly soul moves and accordingly body moves.
  4. Motion in soul by body: As the car moves by quake outside, and the driver moves. Similarly soul moves by the movement of body by external causes.
  5. Body's response to soul's emotions: When soul does emotions, the body responds accordingly. When soul has anger, the eyes turn red. When soul is happy, the face smiles etc.
  6. Souls pleasure/happiness with bodily changes: With heat or cold, the body temperature goes up or down. And soul gets happy/sad with changes of temperature because of Moha.
  7. Changes in body with age: As age increases, the body expands or contracts.

--
Thanks,
Shrish

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan

Dear Shri Sanjay Jain,

Let soul secure Samyakthva.

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.

Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

Sub: Art of Living
Ref: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:30 PM

Quite an analysis, it is that helps to understand the realities of living and pursue the path of liberation.

Well, on the concept of nischaya and vyavahaar there appears to be some cloud of confusion, it is opined.

Nischaya and vyavahaar are two sides of a coin, any doubt?

Absence of nischaya there is no independent vyavhaaar.

Only when nischaya is finalized vyavhaar follows suit. If one wishes to go to ‘Shri Sammed Sikar’ that one has to climb the hill, right. The nischaya is the top of the hill and vyavahaar is steps that start from the bottom of the hill to the top. If there is no wish to go to top of the hill, then there is no need for climbing steps. And if one has to go to top of the bill, climbing the steps is a must, right.

If one feels that but for the steps, that one cannot reach the top of the hill and stays in the steps themselves, then he cannot reach the top of the hill, right. Therefore, necessarily one has to leave the steps, if that one has to enter into the top of the hill.

Steps are part and parcel of the hill trip. They are not made just for that individual but as a pilgrimage centre the steps form part and parcel of the hill. Both the top of the bill and the steps neither invite any one nor obstruct any. They are passive substances functioning ceaselessly.

After reaching the top of the hill there is neither nischaya nor vyavahaar, any doubt.

Vyavahaar is ever changing and temporary whereas nischyaa is permanent and never changing. That which is changing from the truth point of view is untrue or false.

Now your valued statement:
Quote: I say..everythin here is said from vyvhaar view-point only. But whentaking the nischay to consideration.. the vyvhaar stands false. So maybe we should understand the nischay view-point...because by that only our vyvhaar would be said to be true.. otherwise they are false only. unquote.

Analysis:
From the brief information stated herein above, if acceptable or otherwise too, vyavahaar is always impermanent and changing one and hence untrue and false. Vyavhaar is passing or fleeting one and it a tool only to understand the nischaya. Its birth is simultaneous but known or understood only immediately after nischaya.

Vyavahaar is paryaaya – momentary expression or modification - and may be true for that fleeting moment as change is incessant.

Barring the above mentioned point of difference, the write up is well thought out and rendered for the benefit of the valued participants.

Learned Dr Shri C Devakumar Jain in his mail has given importance to the known phenomenon i.e., moha – delusion, raaga – likes and dhvesha – dislikes which are to be distanced by the aspirant to reach the goal of ending the cycle of birth and death. Such an attempt by him is for those who have not entered into the portals of passionless Jina Dharma and are unfamiliar to it; besides carrying passionate concepts as worship worthy. By and large the mundane souls are passionate and hence Dr. has preferred to present it in that fashion.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, sj <jains2008@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: sj <jains2008@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Art of Living: Some tips
> To: "Eternal Peace through Jainism" <peacethruJainism@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 8:30 PM
> i say..everythin here is said from vyvhaar view-point only.
> But when
> taking the nischay to consideration.. the vyvhaar stands
> false. So
> maybe we should understand the nischay view-point...because
> by that
> only our vyvhaar would be said to be true.. otherwise they
> are false
> only.
> anywy.. i would evalute the point given below as per my
> understanding.
> please ignore or let me know the mistake if any since i
> continue to
> wear an ignorant shoes as of now.
>
> 1. keep listing the domain of Moha
> comment:- it does not seem benificial to see/make list of
> the causes
> (nimit). let the 'causes' remain as many and as
> much as they can. Our
> force should be on the the target(soul) only.
>
>
> 2. Do not act or promote or incite Moha in others.
> comment:- This is auspicious thought only. a Dravlingi
> sadhu also does
> auspicious thoughts but still wanders in 4 gatis.
>
>
> 3. Don't indulge in acts which breed anger, greed,
> and ego in
> others.
> comment:- this also is an auspicious thought. Soul is
> differnt from
> auspicious-inauspicous thoughts.
> extra comment:- if only it be in our hand to do .. we
> should do. just
> like moving the matter (pudgal) is not in our hand..since
> the matter
> has its own state(paryay) from which it moves.. same way to
> follow the
> above point is also not in our hand...when seen from
> nischay(true)
> eyes.
>
>
> 4. Try to be as transparent as possible so that no room is
> given for
> > concealment.
> comment:- this is also an Auspicious-thought and nothing
> else. From
> Auspicious-Inauspicious-thoughts.. Sanvar(outflow of
> karmas) does not
> happens.
>
>
> 5. Of course, maintain positive attitude and thoughts, your
> good
> health
> > with regulated diet, sleep and habits so that you
> pursue the path of
> > liberation.
> comment:- these Don't come even under Auspicious
> thoughts. These are
> all Inaspicious-thoughts only and worth not mentioning.
>
> <<I know, these are the mantra for success in life
> too. So why not
> give a try.>>
> Truly speaking.. these are not at all the mantra for
> success in life.
> Success in life would be called at that time when
> samyak-darshan(true-
> faith) would happen. otherwise it is precious life wasted
> only.
>
> regards,
> sj.
>
>
>
> On 22 Jan, 04:10, Dev <cdevaku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jai Jinendra
> >
> > Here are some lessons I keep learning
> > Ahimsa is the best policy; the worst himsa are moha
> (wrong notions), raaga
> > (expanding ambitions) and dvesha (hate against
> roadblockers).
> > So
> >
> >    1. keep listing the domain of Moha
> >    2. Do not act or promote or incite Moha in
> others.
> >    3. Don't indulge in acts which breed anger,
> greed, and ego in others.
> >    4. Try to be as transparent as possible so that
> no room is given for
> >    concealment.
> >    5. Of course, maintain positive attitude and
> thoughts, your good health
> >    with regulated diet, sleep and habits so that you
> pursue the path of
> >    liberation.
> >
> > I know, these are the mantra for success in life too.
> So why not give a try.
> > Please improve the above suggestions so that I improve
> myself.
> >
> > With regards
> >
> > Dev
>
> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google

[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan

Dear Shri Bimal Mohanty,

Let soul secure Samyakthva.

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.

Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

Sub: YOGA AS YAJNA
Ref: Monday, September 28, 2009, 8:39 AM

Kind of your good selves, it is to post your esteemed captioned article to me.

On the captioned two exercises viz., ‘yoga and yajna’, attention drawn here to ‘yoga’ only leaving its comparability or similarity with ‘yajna’.

Yoga: it is the inference from the article that yoga is the activities of mind, word and body, if rightly understood.

Well, one interested will fail not to know that mundane soul is the co-housed condition of Soul – knowing and seeing energy – and body – inert dead material energy; for example milk and water. It means that there are two independent and self subsisting energies – substances - in that state of existence. Could there be any doubt in it?

Cause and effect relationship – kaarana kaarya sambanda: It will be for one’s reasoning that of the two independent and self subsisting energy substances, how could one substance of the two will interact or meddle with the other?

It may appear so but not real.

It is beyond one’s comprehension to think of such and action. Cause and effect could take place in one and the same substance only and not in two different substances. If that takes places, then there would not be any two substances for ever and all will be one alone which is not a fact of life. Since one is conscious and non-physical and the other is non-conscious and physical, diametrically opposing qualities, so one would necessarily conclude that the prospect of one acting on the other is unthinkable or far fetched one, any doubt.

Yoga of Soul is right faith on right knowledge and right conduct on one’s own self – Soul - whereas yoga of body is the physical activities or expressions of the three viz., mind, word and body.

Sensory organs in mundane existence are capable of knowing and seeing only inert physical / material substances to some extent only and that too as long as soul is present in the body. They are incapable of knowing and seeing themselves leave alone knowing and seeing conscious and non-physical faith, knowledge and conduct. For instances, ear – a sensory organ - which hears all sorts of information does not know itself and what it information it receives.

In essence, body is an impediment for the spiritual advancement or liberation from the ageless suffering that soul experiences barring those liberated.

Well, the question will be there of what will be the roll play of body during Soul’s spiritual journey towards liberation – Moksha. Right, its connection or affiliation should gradually be reduced and gets eliminated by itself as its relevance for the existence and function of soul is not dependent on body.

This is in brief an attempt to understand ‘yoga’ of your good selves’ article ‘Yoga and yajna’

Now it is for your good selves and the learned and valued participants to come up with their esteemed views.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan

---

[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan

Dear Shri Peter,

Let soul secure Samyakthva.

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.

Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

Sub: ‘feeding someone elses pets’
Ref: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 8:22 AM

At the outset it is pleasure to welcome you to the discussion table to discuss Passionless Jina Dharma to enlighten your good selves.

Passionless Jina Dharma is essentially deals with the feelings of soul – bhaava – more than the physical acts and it is one and first of the 6 kinds of constituents that constitute this universe. Its sole goal is to relive bodied soul from the bondage of begetting body endlessly and its attendant continuous suffering.

Your question:
Quote: when I feed the cats, one eats mainly meat and the other mainly biscuits.Is it permissable for me to feed them meat or not." unquote.
Analysis:
There are two issues involved in it. Firstly, pet being an animal which is domesticated denying its independent life much against its free will. Secondly about its feed – meat – which is obtainable only by killing another animal.

For the first one it is one’s personal ego or fancy, call it anything, that unnaturally domesticated by pet sellers and your good selves / your wife to succumb to buy one for what ever feelings it might be, but certainly, the very thinking or planning has caused enough damage – influx and bondage of bad karma - to both of you leave alone the act of buying and rearing it.

Of the second one, it is one step more to feed it with meat, the very idea that dawned in both of you is more than enough and caused incalculable damage to both.

Pet is carnivorous – lives on meat - animal by birth and feeding one with biscuits, it is denial of its free will and life.

Passionless Jina Dharma does not discriminate between three 01) doer, 02) getting it done thro other and 03) to approve such an act and the punishment is equal to one and all.

Shri Sramanopasaka has rightly detailed on this aspect.

Dead past is past and feel not for it as nothing can be done to rectify it. Such feelings are born more out of ignorance of the self – Soul - and body. At least save you both from this moment from the clutches of influx of bad karma and its baneful effect of birth and death.

Your good selves and your beloved wife would do well by freeing them without any loss of time.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan

[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan

Dear Shri Subhash C Jain,

Let soul secure Samyakthva.

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.

Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.

‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

Sub: Karma theory as understood by your good selves.
Ref: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 6:22 AM

Thanks for perusing the submission and offering your valued understanding of Karma theory under Passionless Jina Dharma.

Misconception or misunderstanding is the main cause for the cycle of birth and death.

Yours:
Quote:
It is a misconception that the professor's lecture is the instrumental cause of the change in his knowledge.(unquote)

Analysis:
‘Change in one’s knowledge’ is essentially due to the substantial cause of the listener and the lecturer’s delivery need not necessarily cause the ‘change’ as understood. And the lecturer’s delivery was present at that time when change took place. Change of one’s knowledge can take place under any circumstances and in the instant case it is said as delivery of the lecturer.

General:
Dharma of soul and karma of pudgal – matter - are two independent truths carrying altogether different basic components.

Nature of substance is Dharma

In passionless Jina Dharma Dharma of soul is ‘nature of soul’ i.e., inseparable quadruplets - anantha chathushtaya – Gynaan, dharshan, virya and sukha and their expressions. Karma is the inert dead matter with its nature inseparable quadruplets - ananatha chathushtaya – sparsa, varna, rasa and gandha.

Any change in the form of expressions – paryaayas - in soul is basically connected with its qualities which are also non-physical and conscious. Similarly, any change in the form of expressions – paryaayas - in karma i.e., its molecule is basically connected with its qualities which are also physical and non-conscious.

Secondly, for naming an ‘event’ this is the resultant effect of substantial cause and instrumental cause, any doubt.

Thirdly, Change in a substance takes place due to its own intrinsic capacities and instrumental cause gets its name so, just because it is present at the time of the happening of the event.

Fourthly, both soul’s body which is non-physical and karmic body which is physical are co-housed in one and the same place with out even touching each other. That shows their independence and self subsisting nature.

Fifthly, instrumental causes need not necessarily be one alone and it may be any number and substantial cause has the unrestricted choice to accept as instrumental cause. But that is said as predetermined as per Keval Gynaani’s gynaan and not of the mundane soul.

Sixthly, for our purpose of understanding the interaction between Conscious Soul and non conscious inert matter karma, the basic factor is Soul alone and not karma as it is non-conscious and does not have any consequence ie., pain or pleasure.

Bhaavanam bhava bhandanam; Bhaavanam bhava naasanam.

Seventhly, it is the soul - the prime substance and the fist of the six substances - that constitute this universe, bhaava – feeling – is the key factor for its entire suffering or liberation from it.

Eighthly, instrumental cause here karma molecules come and go in the karmic body only and it is a veil for the soul to perceive freely from the vyavahaaric point of view. Really speaking soul’s ignorance – agynaan, indiscipline – avirath and paasions – kashyaas – ‘triroga’ are the substantial causes for its woes.

Ninthly, physical acts in the mundane SOUL has very little relevance to it and the feelings – bhaavas – behind it, prior to and during the physical act, is the real culprit and substantial cause.

Thanking you for all the pains taken to present your karma theory.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

Yours brotherly,
Sreepalan

--- On Tue, 1/12/10, Jain, Subhash C <subhash-jain@uiowa.edu> wrote:

[mahendra]

Sub: Anekaanth dharma
Ref: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 7:31 AM

Thanks for perusing the submission and mailing your understanding of the unique concept.

You have every right to understand but the reality has to be reckoned with, afraid / lest misguidance may dominates the thought process.

‘Vaad’ is a discussion of pros and cons of issues whereas the reality - Anekaanth Dharma - is not a matter of ‘vaad and vivaad’. Syaadvaad is the language of the structural nature of substance Anekaanth.

On Anekaanth there have been many mails in the discussion tables.

It is the harmonious blending of the opposing dharmas – truths – such as permanency and impermanency, one and many, ordinary and special etc., and constitute the substance.

Syaadvaad is explaining it. While substance and its qualities are permanent their modifications (paryaayas) are impermanent. While one is a doctor he is also husband, brother, uncle, son, father etc., depending upon the relationship and such relationships are not absent but they are silent when one is said. Words do not have the capacity to say every thing of the substance.

To accept or not is one’s choice.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyana and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

[mahendra]

Samyak Darshan    

Dear Shri Subhash C Jain,


Let soul secure Samyakthva.

‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.

Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.




‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.

Sub: Soul - Akaal maran - untimely death & Purusharth.

Ref: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 11:45 AM


Sorry for the delayed response.


Quote:
Your first question is related to 'untimely' death which can occur in mishaps such as holocaust you mentioned. Such mishaps are not governed by the karma doctrine; consequently the 'untimely' death cannot be due to the past deeds of the dead person. The life duration of a living being is controlled by the age-determining karma. The life duration is shortened if the entire age-determining karma fructifies before its due time. The process of early fruition of karma is called 'udeearnaa'. The material (upaadaan) and instrumental (nimmitt) causes of the 'untimely' death are the mode (paryaaya) of the living matter of the living matter of the dead person and the 'udeeranaa' of the age determining karma, respectively. The material and instrumental causes of the 'udeeranaa' of the age-determining karma are the age-determining karma and the mishap, respectively. It seems logical to assume that a moment before death the nature-deluding karma manifests with such a
high intensity that its interaction with the stored age-determining karma results in 'udeeranaa' of the age-determining karma.(unquote)


It is believed that the following may help to understand the concept of akaal maran – untimely death.


The use of the phrase akaal maran – untimely death is more a worldly usage than it is reality. Any event to soul or matter happens only in its time – Swa kaal. Normal understanding is that a bodied soul gets separated after some passage of time say after 60 / 70 years of its living. If the death happens earlier than that period it is said as akaal maran – untimely death.


Karma and its implication in respect of mundane existence are universal in theory and practice.


Holocaust or cyclone etc., are the adjustment in the nature and it is so ferocious that affects the living beings. The atrocious disturbance caused by humans needs constant adjustment and the aforesaid are the adjustments by nature.


During the violent happenings, death of living beings do happen and such happenings form as one of the many instrumental causes and in the instant case it synchronies with that of the aayu karma sprouting – udheerana which again is another instrumental cause for the death of living beings.


Many naturally die and some do escape death during such violent events. Such escapes are due to the non-fructification of aayu karma of those souls.

  
Nimitta nymittiga sambanda - psycho-physical relationship – is between two substances viz., soul and matter (pudgal). Soul and body being two self subsisting and independent substances, the question of one determining the modification of the other is untenable as per Passionless Jina Dharma.


Kaarana kaarya sambanda – cause and effect relationship is only in one and the same substance.


Soul relieving from body is the substantial cause and body and many other instrumental causes are present during such an event. Body separating from soul is the substantial cause and soul and many other instrumental causes are present during such an event.


In the instant case such souls which succumb to death are souls which have to part from respective bodies due to their substantial cause and aayu karma of such souls is one of instrumental causes.


Kaal again is made up of atoms unlike the material – pudgal – atom and they are innumerous, called kaalannu – time particles.


Thus kaal cannot be ascribed as a cause for the separation of soul and body.  


Therefore, the usage of akaal maran – untimely death - is more a vyavahaaric one than reality and the death of many did happen at the right time only.



Quote:
Your second question is related to 'purusharth' (free will). Though it is true that our new deeds are the results of fruition of our old karmas, which in turn are the results of the karmic particles attached to our soul by our old deeds, it is only the partial truth. The fruition of karma not only depends upon the material cause of fruition of karma, but also on the instrumental cause of fruition of karma. The material cause of fruition of our karma is our karma itself which is determined by the karma doctrine. The instrumental cause of fruition of our karma is not determined by the karma doctrine and has no relationship with our karma. We have freedom to pick the instrumental cause of fruition of our karma. By selecting the instrumental cause of fruition of our karma we control our deeds. Because we have the freedom to select the instrumental cause of fruition of karma, we are morally responsible for our deeds.(unquote)



On Purushaarth of Soul:
Purushaarth of Soul is only ‘Knowing and seeing’ – gynatha dhrishta - and not doing. And of course it is free to know and see.  Deeds (doing) are functions of matter – pudgal.


Belief on the right and wrong ‘knowing and seeing’ followed by resultant conduct is the cause for the attainment of liberation and non-liberation from the cycle of birth and death.


Karma is only an instrumental cause and has no independent capacity to alter the course of the flow modifications of the soul and vice se versa in respect of matter.  Soul of course does commit mistakes and allow itself to identify itself with the material changes that occur in the body. It is due to its own ignorance of what it is and what its capabilities are.


Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

[mahendra]

Posted by: "ANISH SHAH" anishshah19@hotmail.com
Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:12 am (PST)




Jai Jinendra,
Having an enlightened Guru is desirable but not an absolute necessity. As per the Jain scriptures (Tattvartha Sutra), Samyak Darshan (enlightenment) can happen in a soul either on its own or through an agency like a guru, prayers or reading scriptures. It should be remembered that Guru is a nimmita i.e. catalyst or a subsidiary cause of enlightenment. The substantial cause or the main cause is the soul itself. Many other philosophies believe that it is impossible to obtain enlightenment and salvation without a Guru, priest, prophet or a middleman. Jainism is very clear on this – No middleman can guarantee you any liberation, it will be your efforts alone.
Having said that, I feel that it is desirable to have a guru or a mentor who can guide you on the right path. At the same time one should use his or her discretion and discriminative knowledge on what is right and wrong.
In Navkar or Namokar Mantra, out of the five paramesthis (the enlightened beings worthy of worship) two are gods and three are gurus. Thus Gurus have an important place in Jainism as they not only disseminate the teachings of Kevalin, but follow the same path.
At the same time, one needs to be careful in selecting a true guru. As Gandhiji said : “My Life is my message”, the teachings of a true guru should reflect in his/ her conduct. Obviously, one who preaches in Airconditioned auditoriums, travels in Luxury cars and visits foreign places cannot be a true guru. You may respect such person as a knowledgable layman but he should not claim to be Guru. As per the Jain scriptures only a person who have taken the five Mahavratas (Five great vows) are eligible to be a Guru. So an ideal guru is a Jain monk or nun, as only they can observe absolute non-violence and non-attachment.
Regards
Anish

To: jainlist@yahoogroups.com
From: shankari_kali@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:37:19 -0800
Subject: [JainList] Jainism and Gurus

Dear Group:

I have been interested in Jainism for quite some time for a variety of reasons, but I would like to know what Jains feel about gurus or the necessity of having a guru to learn certain texts or mantras. In Jainism is it necessary to have a guru even though you live in a remote area in North America?

Thank you,
Starla


__________________________________________________________

[mahendra]

[jainpushp] noncreationism in Jainism
show details Jun 10 (8 days ago)

Samyak Darshan    
  
Dear Dr. Shri  Amit Praksah Jain,
  
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
  
‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
  
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  
‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  
Sub: Jina Dharma and science.
Ref: Sunday, June 6, 2010 7:03 AM
Quite nice, it is, to read the comparable moot points between Passionless Jina Dharma and modern science.

Quote: Now, the same is the concept of "Gyata-drishta Sarvagya" in Jainisn.A sarvgya sees every thing & all the points of the time-line at the same instance, means he is not standing on this time-line otherwise he would be able to see only the things of that particular point of the time-line.
So, salvation according to jainism removes a soul from his journey on the time-line.
No future of the salvated souls could be seen as they are not travelling on the time line, but their past can be seen.
Jainsm also says that they can't do anything or make any change.
Yes, no one can make any changes on the time-line but can only see or observe.(unquote)
Analysis:
Point compared if it is rightly understood it is that time is beginning less and endless as compared to the modern concept of second, minute, hour etc., which has definite end.
Time substance – Kaal dhravya – as revealed by venerable Thirthankars is broadly divided into two viz., nischya kall and vyavahaar kaal. The beginning and end less time is called as nischaya kaal and that which has limitation is called vyavahaar kaal. Nischaya kaal has neither past nor future and it has only present.
Secondly, on the concept of upayoga – gynaatha dhrishta – the expression – paryaaya - of knowledge quality of Soul is happening from the beginning less time and shall be so for all the times to come. So there is no effort is necessary to know and see anything as all the visible and non-visible will fall on the knowledge screen of the soul automatically as objects are showing themselves due to exhibiting quality – prameyathva gunn. Knowing and seeing is happening very naturally. Hence there is nimitta nymittiga sambanda – psycho-physical relationship – between the two viz., soul and other object in the universe – lokakaasa - as the two substances are distinctive constituents of the universe and they cannot but remain in the universe for all the times to come.
Thirdly, mundane souls have limitation in their knowing and seeing as they are tainted with ignorance born delusion from the beginning less time and as a consequence soul develops ‘likes and dislikes’ which in turn manifests passions both intense and mild – a cause for the continuance of the cycle of birth and death.
Fourthly, knowledge quality of soul as explained herein above, does ‘know and see’ only knowledge quality of soul and all the things in the universe fall – jalaktha hai - on it automatically without any effort to put in. The difference between Kevali and mundane soul is that due to delusion later focuses itself on things which it likes or dislikes and thereby forces its capability of ‘knowing and seeing’ to an avoidable limitation and whereas Kevali is ‘knowing and seeing’ only Himself and it means He is enjoying His indelible quality of infinite happiness from then onwards.
On ‘knowing and seeing’:
Take the example of mirror which neither goes to the objects reflected nor the reflected objects come to it.  Both remain in their respective places and mirror reflects exactly the objects without any reduction or increase, right. The reflected image is just a replica or Xerox or copy of the object and carries none of the qualities of the object reflected, any doubt. So the image is an expression – paryaaya - of the mirror and developed by the intrinsic capability of the mirror. You would not fail to notice that there are two images viz., one original and the other duplicate. Absence of mirror is absence of images too.
Similarly, neither soul goes to the objects that are seen nor the objects come to it. Due to its intrinsic capability it develops images of the objects that are before and they are the expressions – paryaayas – of knowledge quality of soul. In essence, Soul ‘knows and sees’ Soul thro’ Soul only. This process of ‘knowing and seeing’ is common to all the living beings be it Siddha Parameshtin or one sensed and differs only in quantity and number.
Upayoga of soul in Kevalin is functioning simply and ordinarily and it has no any attraction on anything in this universe besides it believes for certainty that it has neither capacity nor any use or benefit to do anything in the universe as it is full and complete in all respects to exist and function – swayam siddh.
Sorry if the explanation is lengthy.

                                                                                
Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  
Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  
Welcome for any further clarification.
  
Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  
Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  
Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  
Yours brotherly,

Sreepalan

--- On Sun, 6/6/10, AMIT PRAKASH JAIN <ameetpjain@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: AMIT PRAKASH JAIN <ameetpjain@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [jainpushp] noncreationism in Jainism
To: jainpushp@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 7:03 AM

  

Dear  Aleksi.
Jai Jinendra,
you can see an article in my blog www.jainascience. blogspot. com and read the topic "The conccept of god in jainism"
in this regard.
Dr.Amit Prakash Jain



From: mellivoracapensis <mellivoracapensis@ yahoo.com>
To: jainpushp@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 21:37:44
Subject: [jainpushp] noncreationism in Jainism

  

Please discuss the idea of noncreationism in Jainism. I admire Jainism's scientific basis. I am so proud to practice this faith. Jai jinendra. aleksei green


--- In jainpushp@yahoogroups.com, AMIT PRAKASH JAIN <ameetpjain@...> wrote:
>
> Dear  Aleksi.
> Jai Jinendra,
> you can see an article in my blog www.jainascience.blogspot.com and read the topic "The conccept of god in jainism"


> in this regard.
> Dr.Amit Prakash Jain
>
>   Jai jinendra! Many thanks. I will look at your website. Fascinating. aleksei
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mellivoracapensis <mellivoracapensis@...>
> To: jainpushp@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 21:37:44
> Subject: [jainpushp] noncreationism in Jainism
>
>   
> Please discuss the idea of noncreationism in Jainism. I admire Jainism's scientific basis. I am so proud to practice this faith. Jai jinendra. aleksei green

[mahendra]

Sreepalan VC to jainpushp, quest4eternal_., jainpushp, jainsangh, kundkund, tamil-jain, jainismus, jainmission, jaindigamberne., vishwajains, jaina_teachers, Sumsec, csmaheshjain, sathuj, Maharaja, jain_pm, rkeerthi51, jayasreeumesh, rameshbhandari., rameshsheth, cspjain, esamskriti, ajithadoss, asomarajan, raju_mcrs, madhavic
show details Jun 16 (5 days ago)

Samyak Darshan    
  
Dear Dr. Shri Amit Prakash Jain,
  
Let soul secure Samyakthva.
  
‘Vathu Sahaavo Dhammo’ – Veer Vaani - 'Nature of substance is Dharma'.
  
Ask thou, thou shall be given; knock thou and thou shall be heard.
  
‘Know thyself and be thyself’ – Achaarya Shri Kund Kund Dev.
  
Sub: On Soul by different faiths
Ref: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 10:25 AM
Bharat based faiths are those mentioned by your good selves and their clarity on soul spelt out therein needs more on it to present a more closer a picture of it.

It is believed that Passionless Jina Dharma presents conclusive and all embracing definition of Soul as provided by venerable Acharya Shri Kund Kund Dev and followed by many Acharyas and learned Punditds / Sastrys of the Jain society.

Buddha Dharma is ‘kshanika vaad’ and speaks non-existence of soul.

Hindu Dharma as such is a conglomeration of many faiths viz., Vedantha, Vaisheshika, Sankiya etc. In some the very existence of soul is doubted or not spoken of, if it is rightly understood. Generally it is said that everything in the universe is permanent.

On Soul by Passionless Jina Dharma:

Universe – Lokakasa – comprises six kinds of substances.

They are classified into two viz., Soul and non Soul
Soul is one of main constituents of the six kinds of substances that constitute this universe – Lokakasha.

Of the six, Soul – Jiva thathva - is the only one which has as rightly pointed out by your good selves, is conscious and carries the expression – paryaaya - gynaatha dhrishta – knowing and seeing and all the rest are non-souls – ajiva thathvas.

Thathva is reality in respect of dhravyas and is self-subsisting and independent substance. Substance is one which subsists by itself.

Soul, therefore, is beginning less and endless, unadulterated single, impenetrable, indestructible, indivisible one extensive
Unit, non-physical etc.

They are infinite in umber and one soul occupies innumerable space and nonetheless, capable of shrinking and expanding – sankuch and visthaar – depending upon the birth it enters due its own bhaava.  It has capacity to move and rest - gamanaagaman.

Besides the above, there are two kinds of souls in the universe viz., bodied souls – samsaaric jivas – pure souls – Siddha Jivas.

Samsaara means roaming – paribrahaman - in thoughts such as good and bad – shubha bhaava and ashuba bhaava - which causes various births and enters into various bodies due to its own capability of moving and rest – gaman / aagaman. Samsaara does not mean wife, children, relatives, house, land, gold, silver, etc., and it is vyavahaaric view – not real.

Since karmic body – kaarman sarira – is housed along with Soul from the beginning less time, its functions also are simultaneously expressed. The expressions – paryaayas - of soul is due to its own ignorance born delusion – moha – causing ‘likes and dislikes’ which in turn manifests passions viz., anger, pride, deceit and greed.  

Soul manifests unnatural expressions – vibhaava parinathi/paryaaya (passions) – of its own accord and due to its own wrong belief – upaadhana kaarana - and the erstwhile bound dhravya karma when it sprouts, it identifies with it – nimitta kaarana.

The unnatural expressions of soul is providing favorable condition – clumsy vibration - as against symmetrical vibration - for the dhravya karma. It is all pervading the universe, to convert itself into 8 kinds of karma viz., gynaanavarniya karma, dharshanaavarniya karma etc., and joins the karmic body. The conversion and attachment of karmic molecules with the karmic body is of its own accord – upaadhana kaarana - and the clumsy vibration is nimitta kaarana.


Inert dead material karmic molecules are physical and non-conscious whereas soul is conscious and physical. Therefore, though they are housed together neither soul can touch body nor body can touch soul and it so from beginning less time and shall be so for all the times to come.  


In essence, the inert dead karmic molecules are not the real cause for the cycle of birth and death. Soul and soul alone by its vibhaava parinathi – unnatural vibrations (thoughts other than self – soul) are the real cause for its continuance in the cycle of birth and death. This is nischaya point of view. Vyavahaarically it is ascribed to dhravya karma which is co-housed with soul.

Liberation – Moksha of soul:

Once soul understands that it is self-subsisting and independent due to its discriminatory knowledge – bedha vigynaan – then it determines that it is different from body. The cause for its bodied condition and its attendant suffering is due to its abuse of its unique capability of ‘knowing and seeing’ by believing that it is ‘seeing and knowing’ what is seen in its knowledge screen instead of both knowledge and its contents – prathi bimbhas.

Knowledge quality, really speaking, is capable of ‘knowing and seeing’ only. Knowledge and all the objects in the universe are perceivable by knowledge quality. Objects of the universe both chethan and achethan all will be depicting themselves whether soul wishes or not as they are exhibiting continuously. This is the ordinary quality (Prameyathva gunn) of all the six kinds of substances.

For example mirror reflects images in the ordinary course. Neither mirror goes to objects nor do the objects come to mirror. Mirror develops its own images of objects due to its intrinsic capacity. There are two images and one is the real of the object and the other is the reflected image which is copy of the object.
The reflected image is the expression – paryaaya - of mirror and has nothing to do with the object. Similar is the process of knowing and seeing of the knowledge quality of Soul.

Absence of mirror is the absence of all the images. If mirror is seen all the images reflected are also seen.

(Gynaan gynaanse gynaan ko hi dektha hai; gynaan may sabi vasthu diktha hai.)

This is in brief description of Self – Soul – as per Passionless Jina Dharma.


It may be noted that such comprehensive details on Self – Soul – whether available in other faiths is for one to ponder over. Knowledgeable participants may please come up with their esteemed replies.

  
Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.
  
Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.
  
Welcome for any further clarification.
  
Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.
  
Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.
  
Now, it is, for the participants to come up.
  
Yours brotherly,

Sreepalan


--- On Sat, 6/12/10, AMIT PRAKASH JAIN <ameetpjain@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: AMIT PRAKASH JAIN <ameetpjain@yahoo.com>
Subject: [jainpushp] common aspect of soul in 3 indian faiths
To: "jain pushp" <jainpushp@yahoogroups.com>, "jain list" <jainlist@yahoogroups.com>, "kundkund" <kundkund@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 10:25 AM

  

Jai Jinendra,
I came to notice one similarity in the philosophy of jainism, budhhism and hinduism.
The 3 pkilosophies uses 3 different words for a nearly same thing.
They tell what is the basic nature of the jeev or soul , or what should one do to attain nirvana.
Jainism clearly defines soul's quality as "gyata drishta" that is to know and see .
While buddhism descrimes it as "tathataa" which means total acceptability, means "jo jaisa hai , jiska swarup jaisa hai usey vaisa hi janana wu sweekar karna.That is, what ever is the reality ,you shold know it as it is.
Hinduism says that soul should have "sakshi bhaav", means just be spectator means just be the knower and to see.

Dr.Amit Prakash Jain